Video of New Buddha Ram Bomjon Here

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Video of New Buddha Ram Bomjon Here

by jclifford 3/21/2006 @ 9:40 am. Filed under GeneralReligionMysteries

Earlier this morning, I reported that Ram Bomjon, the teenager from Nepal who is supposed to have proved his merit as a new Buddha or great enlightened teacher by sitting under a pipal tree for ten months straight without moving, eating, or drinking has been found by his followers, after he suddenly went missing earlier earlier this month. (Why didn’t Mary Grace on CNN do some special outraged coverage of this missing teenager?)

Well, here’s a video of Ram Bomjon’s appearance to his followers.

Isn’t it interesting how, while “searching” for Ram Bomjon out in the woods, his followers just happened to be carrying a video camera? I know that every time I go out searching for a missing teenager, I make sure to bring at least two camcorders along [sarcasm, sarcasm].

It seems that Ram Bomjon appeared only to announce to his followers to say that he would be gone for the next six years, in a secret place one could reach by five days and five nights of walking. Like all good hoaxsters, Ram Bomjon and his inner circle of followers know better than to let their illusion appear long enough to be closely examined. Note also in this video the clever use of Ram Bomjon’s long hair – as it was used during almost the entire time Ram Bomjon was purported to be meditating under the tree. Can you really tell who that boy is? Do we know for sure it’s the same Ram Bomjon all the time, or could it be more than one boy, switching the role back and forth? Only the wig knows.

Ram Bomjon was, though, good enough to tell his followers that they should set up a new camp on the spot where he appeared to them, for pilgrims and worshippers to come to… and make donations… and buy souvenirs. The Buddha did that too, right?

Related Posts:
Ram Bomjon’s Handlers Under Investigation
Ram Bomjon and the Development of Myth
Photos Show Ram Bomjon Moved
Is Ram Bomjon the AntiChrist?
Funny video clips of our fearless leader

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61 Responses to “Video of New Buddha Ram Bomjon Here”

  1. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 12:59 pmA lof of people around the world these days carry with them cell phones that include a video clip recording capability. This also applies to some PDA devices that are easy to carry and commonly ARE carried. I don’t think it is so unusual that they would carry some kind of device that supports taking video clips. In addition, all the tourists, devotees and others around him have brought video recording devices every month and day for nearly a year “in case” they encounter any special circumstance, movement, speech, or whatever that might occur. It would seem more unusual in that context if they DID NOT – one of them – have some recording device with them.Who knows, maybe he asked one of his friends to bring this group to that clearing for a short liason so he could apologize for disappearing unexpectedly and then return to private meditation for six years free of his concern that he left to abruptly. Maybe they chose to bring a video device because they expected a meeting in that kind of circumstance. Plenty of reasonable qualities can be imagined just as plenty of unreasonable circumstances can be imagined.It is abundantly common in those areas for sadhus, yoga practitioners and others to avoid cutting their hair according to beliefs they have about very long, natural hair. Any one who has seen photos or visited Kumba Mela or India generally knows long hair is common among those given to meditation and yoga practice over there.His “handlers” have not concealed the fact that he spoke after a snake bite, or that he moved a little now and then under various cicumstances in the ten months intervening. I think a reasonable person would not interpret so literally their words about non-movement as you have on your website. Only by construing their words so literally are you able to make them appear to have a unreasonable and inconsistent quality. Why don’t you chill a little and allow that this guy might just be someone interested in daily meditations more than you, and is simply doing that.James
  2. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 1:08 pmMost press reports about this new meeting with the boy, after his brief disappearance, only say that
    he asked for others to include him in their prayers. Nothing has been said that I’ve seen elsewhere, that he asked others to set up commercial ou’re wanting to make a young, religiously minded boy who’s manner is foreign to you, and make fun of him, right?
  3. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 1:18 pmA common practice among advanced yoga practitioners, meditation masters, etc. in India and the Himalays generally involves these persons spending a long time, i.e. one to five years, in total isolation. It is common for them to live as a recluse for that period of time in a cave, or beneath temples in the mountains, etc. in total silence without speaking. This has been a normal and common practice for those reclusive monks for many centuries. In that context, the fact that this boy would “disappear” to some quiet, private setting is nothing but typical. That is what anyone from that part of the world and that culture would normally expect. To do otherwise would be questionable. That solitude is considered essential for the deep concentration and personal transformation they hope for.So, I suggest that much of the inclination by westerners to assume this is a scam because the disappearance, the long sitting meditation looks strange and unusual – is only a product of cultural ignorance. If you want to understand the normality of this stuff over there, then research the background of other well known figures like Yogananda, Sri Yukteswar, and others who have spent portions of their lives in total solitude. They are “recluses” for pete’s sake. That’s what they do.
  4. J. Clifford Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 1:45 pmNo, James, I’m quite willing to make fun of religious hucksters of all cultures, not just ones that are foreign to me. Take a look around the web site, and you’ll see exactly what I mean.What makes you think that religous figures should be above this kind of questioning, James?
  5. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 2:15 pmMy sense is that in the course of you making fun of people you label as religious hucksters, you make up or exagerate certain details to dramatise your point. In that case, you’re making fun of an imaginary huckster of your own fabrication, not the same person one would know from a more objective description.You can question religious figures all that you want, just as others should question your motives and purported “facts” in these pages. Your website seems to be based on hyperbole, story telling, cherry picking some facts and leaving others out. If that’s what you intend to do, that’s fine with me. It just inspires others like me to spend a few minutes questioning some of your writings, that’s all. No big deal. Here today, gone tomorrow.
  6. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 2:16 pmJclifford, would you please post here the source where you got this video clip from…of Bomjon?Readers here may like to assure themselves that the version you show here is the same and as complete as the original.Thank you for your time.
  7. J. Clifford Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 2:28 pmSource: BBCCherry picking facts may include your not mentioning that it is physiologically impossible for a person to sit still for 10 months, even if they fidget a bit, without eating or drinking or going to the bathroom, and maintain the kind of muscle tone that Ram Bomjon shows in the pictures and video.Cherry picking may include your omission of the fact that no one was allowed to examine Ram Bomjon or see where he was at night during his whole meditation.Cherry picking may also include your failure to discuss the very long and very rich tradition of fake gurus in India and Nepal, people who use various magician-style tactics to perform supposedly miraculous acts in order to gain followers.Show a little bit of critical thinking, would you? Question what I write, yes, but please show some of the same questioning attitude toward this Ram Bomjon nonsense.Yes, I feel free to have a bit of fun writing about a group of teenagers in Nepal who perpetrate an obvious hoax on a world with many people to believe anything that seems miraculous.What the heck is wrong with that?
  8. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 2:54 pmBears are known to hibernate for months, during which time they don’t eat and their metabolic processes nearly cease for all practical purposes. Perhaps a similar principle applies in the case of someone like Bomjon when meditating for months with advanced techniques. Just because the potential explanation isn’t known, that doesn’t mean it is impossible. Before Bears were known as a matter of fact to hibernate, someone claiming they do would sound like a quack. But just “sounding like a quack” doesn’t make that person a quack.I accept that you can’t explain what physicological principle might make that possible. I don’t accept that the only explanation is that it is a scam. It’s too early for that. Besides, if that kind of thing is possible, it would be great to see it more broadly learned. Maybe those who can slow metabolic processes like that could slwo progression of diseases like aids until better treatments are available. That’s more fun to consider than the dry, simple guess that only a scam is possible here.I’m sure that if Bomjon is legitimate, he could care less whether doctors want to eexamine him to develop there understanding of physiological processes. And, if he’s not legit, a theory like yours applies that he avoids an exam to perpetuate a scam. We don’t know. That’s the most that can be said with certainty.The rich tradition of fake tactics doesn’t meant that all gurus in India are fakirs.Just because some guy named Ted Bundy is a criminal doesn’t mean all guys named Ted Bundy are criminals….. Etc. Etc. Etc.
  9. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:09 pmWell, James, don’t stop there. It could be space aliens! It’s too early to say whether space aliens were involved! We don’t know. That’s the most that can be said with certainty. That we’ve never seen a space alien doesn’t mean that Ram Bomjon is not in league with the space aliens. Etc. Etc. Etc.
  10. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:21 pmSure. make fun of being open minded. No skin off my back. I simply drew
    an analogy between the known phenomenon of hiberation wherein life forms lower
    their metabolic rate and go without food for months. I didn’t mention space aliens,
    some guy named Jim did….again…for fun. Does it seem impossible that a human being
    could somehow trigger a hibernation type of state, given that animals/mammals
    are already known to do so?
  11. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:28 pmNobody has ever seen a human being hibernate.
    Nobody has ever seen a space alien.Does it seem impossible that a human being could somehow trigger the ability to fly, given that animals/mammals are already known to do so?Why aren’t you being “open minded” about this?
  12. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:29 pmSpeaking of hiberation…..a cancer research website published a recent article asserting that mice can trigger a state of hibernation on demand. Mice are mammals. Scientists suspect humans may have this latent ability, and if so it could aid research and increase options for coping with disease. Here is a part of that article. I think it is plausible that meditation could for some people lower metabolism radically, as hibernation does.James————-
    Buying Time Through ‘Hibernation on Demand’
    Landmark finding in mice may lead to new approaches for cancer and trauma care in human
    Media ToolkitSEATTLE — April 21, 2005 — Scientists at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center have, for the first time, induced a state of reversible metabolic hibernation in mice. This achievement, the first demonstration of “hibernation on demand” in a mammal, ultimately could lead to new ways to treat cancer and prevent injury and death from insufficient blood supply to organs and tissues.“We are, in essence, temporarily converting mice from warm-blooded to cold-blooded creatures, which is exactly the same thing that happens naturally when mammals hibernate,” said lead investigator Mark Roth, Ph.D., whose findings will be published in the April 22 issue of Science.“We think this may be a latent ability that all mammals have — potentially even humans — and we’re just harnessing it and turning it on and off, inducing a state of hibernation on demand,” said Roth, a member of Fred Hutchinson’s Basic Sciences Division.During a hibernation-like state, cellular activity slows to a near standstill, which reduces dramatically an organism’s need for oxygen. If such temporary metabolic depression could be replicated in humans, it could help buy time for critically ill patients on organ-transplant lists and in operating rooms, ERs and battlefields, Roth said.“Manipulating this metabolic mechanism for clinical benefit potentially could revolutionize treatment for a host of human ills related to ischemia, or damage to living tissue from lack of oxygen,” said Roth, also an affiliate professor of biochemistry at the University of Washington School of Medicine.
  13. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pmJim claims:
    Nobody has ever seen a human being hibernate.
    Nobody has ever seen a space alien.James replies:
    I think it is more true to say that YOU don’t know of anyone who has seen a human being hibernate.
    and YOU don’t know anyone who has seen a space alien (humanoid looking or dust mite looking).Just because YOU don’t know of something doesn’t mean that others don’t know of it. See article below by scientists who theorize that humans have a latent ability to hibernate. By simple hypnosis, humans can be made to lower their metabolic rates dramactically for surgical purposes. Lowering metabolic rate via some meditation technique may be a logical extension of the same principle. When you fall asleep at night, which doesn’t require knowledge or intelligence on yoru part, you lower your metabolism radically. Meditation is just a concious method of lowering metabolic rates.James
  14. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:43 pmHow did they do that in mice? Hmm? Well, let me find that website you reference. Oh, dear. Oh, dearie dear dear. Reading down in that press release, it says that “They achieved this by placing the mice in a chamber filled with normal room air laced with 80 parts per million of hydrogen sulfide.”Did Buddha use hydrogen sulfide to reach enlightenment?And why are you ignoring my question about human flight? Isn’t your mind open to it?
  15. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 3:55 pmYes. I am open to human flight. I don’t know what the context is of what you suggest, or what may be.
    Let’s see, if they keep fiddling with genetic programming, could they someday put wings on humans? I don’t know….seems unlikely, but *maybe.* I don’t need to say it will happen to be open minded. I can just say that I don’t know, not make a judgment to foreclose it, and that leaves me with an open mind. Not a very big jump there.Just because they induce a state of hibernation ONE WAY in an experiment, doesn’t mean other ways are not also possible. When you fall alseep at night, your metabolic rate lowers. I don’t think it is an enormous step to imagine that some people can use hypnosis or meditation to lower metabolic rates radically. . . such as a hybernating state. I just see no reason to take a position that it is an impossibility. I simply maintain that it is an unexplained possibility. That state of affairs doesn’t *prove* a scam.
  16. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 4:17 pmPBS, the public broadcasting network, presented a special show on hibernation. In it, they quote scientists who think it is plausible that humans can hibernate, and claim there is no evidence to show that humans cannot hibernate.Here are some excerpts:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/satoyama/hibernation.html
    Black bears do no exercising of any sort during the winter months, prefering to lie rolled into a tight ball, with their heads between their forepaws and their heavily furred backs exposed to the worst of the cold
    Once a black bear begins hibernating, it can doze for many months with a body temperature of 88°F or higher, which is within 12°F of summer levels.
    Using telemetry, Edgar Folk of the University of Iowa monitored the heart rate of a captive bear in Alaska as it slept. In the early fall, its heart beat 40 to 50 times a minute for most of each night. By December, when the bear was deep in hibernation, its sleeping heart rate had slowed to as few as eight beats a minute.some individuals can revive disconcertingly quickly. Rogers again:On January 8, 1972, I tried to hear the heartbeat of a soundly sleeping five-year-old female by pressing my ear against her chest. I could hear nothing. Either the heart was beating so weakly that I could not hear it, or it was beating so slowly I didn’t recognize it. After about two minutes, though, I suddenly heard a strong, rapid heartbeat. The bear was waking up. Within a few seconds she lifted her head as I tried to squeeze backward through the den entrance. Outside, I could still hear the heartbeat, which I timed (after checking to make sure it wasn’t my own) at approximately 175 beats per minute.Even though a hibernating bear drinks no water, it does not become dehydrated. In a 1973 study published in the American Journal of Physiology, hibernation expert Ralph Nelson and colleagues at the Mayo Clinic and Mayo Foundation found that the three hibernating bears they studied were in “almost perfect water balance” after about 100 days of hibernation, during which they swallowed not a single drop of water.
    Evidence is mounting that hormone-like substances in hibernating bears may control all these physiological tricks. When injected into other species, both those that hibernate and those that don’t, these substances engender hibernation-like effects. Who knows? If people can be made to hibernate, perhaps sufferers of seasonal-affective disorder, or SAD, will find the ultimate relief: a winter-long snooze.Human hibernation may not be as far-fetched as it sounds. In December 2000, Gerhard Heldmaier, a professor at the University of Marburg in Germany and chairman of the International Hibernation Society, announced the discovery of two genes that are thought to trigger hibernation. These genes direct enzymes to burn fat rather than carbohydrates, thereby equipping the body for hibernation. “There is no real reason,” Heldmaier told London’s Independent on December 3rd, “to say that humans are so different from other mammals that they are unable to enter hibernation.”Although it’s possible that people may one day be able to nod off for the winter, the most likely applications of human hibernation involve medicine and perhaps space travel. Doctors might be able to preserve transplant organs longer if those organs could go into hibernation, as a true hibernator’s organs do. The U.S. Army is reportedly eager to look into the potential of using hibernation to preserve wounded soldiers during transport from battlefields to hospitals. And NASA has sponsored research on using hibernation for long-distance space travel.
  17. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 5:03 pmI found this additional news item discussing how humans appear to enter hibernation accidentally. Although it doesn’t offer a theory or example of willful, on demand hiberation, it does suggest the viability from a physiological standpoint in humans:LiveScience.com – New Hibernation Technique Might Work on Humans
    http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050421_hibernation.html
    Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:00:58 PM GMT-8Humans have been known to hibernate by accident, Roth and his colleagues point out.
    A Norwegian skier was rescued in 1999 after being submerged in icy water for more than an hour. She had no heartbeat and her body temperature was 57 degrees Fahrenheit (normal is 98.6). She recovered.
    Canadian toddler Erika Nordby wandered outside at night and nearly froze to death in 2001. She wore only a diaper and T-shirt. It was minus 11 Fahrenheit (-24 Celsius). When found, her heart had stopped beating for two hours and her body temperature was 61 degrees. She suffered severe frostbite but required no amputations and otherwise recovered.
    “Understanding the connections between random instances of seemingly miraculous, unexplained survival in so-called clinically dead humans and our ability to induce – and reverse – metabolic quiescence in model organisms could have dramatic implications for medical care,” Roth said. “In the end I suspect there will be clinical benefits and it will change the way medicine is practiced, because we will, in short, be able to buy patients time.”
  18. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 5:10 pmThis below article explains that scientists have found at least two human genes which enable hibernation. One of the genes appears to enable the body to reserve most nutrients for use by the brain and nervious system only. It mentions that metabolic rates/oxygen consumption can drop to 2% of normal. With such slow metabolism, the idea of a person like Bomjon going for months without food or water seems more plausible.Biology – Hibernation
    http://www.crystalinks.com/hibernation.html
    Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:07:07 PM GMT-8Biology – Hibernation
    Scientists have discovered genes for hibernation in humans.February 8, 2000 – London Times
    The discovery could pave the way for human hibernation of the kind foreshadowed for astronauts in the 30-year-old film 2001: A Space Odyssey.
    Human hibernation would make ultralong-haul space travel feasible, with crews effectively put to sleep for months, or even years, by triggering the hibernation genes that man’s distant ancestors used millions of years ago to sleep through hostile winters.
    The American army, which has been funding the research, is interested in the concept of inducing protective hibernation in battlefield casualties to keep them alive when medical help is not at hand.
    Researchers in Britain are also investigating the role of genes in the mini-hibernation of Siberian hamsters, with the aim of triggering similar genes in humans to help people lose weight.
    But the first use of hibernation technology is likely to be in transplant surgery, where donor organs would be preserved on shelves for weeks or months by putting them into a state of deep sleep.
    After a five-year project, Matthew Andrews, associate professor of genetics at North Carolina State University has identified two genes – PL and PDK-4 – which appear to mastermind hibernation.
    One stops carbohydrate me-tabolism, which ensures that the glucose that animals have stored in their body from their last meal is preserved for use by the brain and central nervous system. The second gene controls the production of an en-zyme that breaks up stored fatty acids, and converts them into usable fats for fuel. As a result, the animal can tick over on its stored fat.
    Hibernation in animals is characterised by huge drops in heart rate, body temperature and metabolism, resulting in long-term dormancy. In this state, body temperature is only a few degrees above freezing, oxygen consumption is down to 2% of normal, and the heart rate drops from up to 300 beats a minute to just three or four.
    Researchers found the genes can be made to work in similar ways in humans. The PDK-4 gene, for example, is switched on by starvation, when its job is to conserve glucose.
    The next target is to track down the triggers which start the genetic process that leads to the seasonal shutdown. One theory is that melatonin, the hormone whose production responds to light, may be involved.
    At the Rowett Institute in Aberdeen, director Dr Peter Morgan and his team have been working on the role of melatonin in the mini-hibernation of the Siberian hamster.
    “We think that the central mechanisms which regulate body weight are finely tuned by melatonin, that they respond to the changes in the length of day, the photo period, and make the changes that control food intake, body weight, and energy expenditure,” he says.
    The research aims to identify what genes are involved in triggering the loss of body fat, and to find a way of kick-starting the same genes in humans as a way of losing weight.BIOLOGY INDEX
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    CRYSTALINKS MAIN PAGESearch crystalinks.com Search web
  19. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 6:10 pmYeah, problem: all of Roth’s examples are frozen. Bomjon wasn’t frozen, and he wasn’t put in a chamber of hydrogen sulfide.The additional news item isn’t an additional news item. It’s about the same item of news, with the press release rewritten somewhat by a news service.
  20. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 6:18 pmYou can also find “proof” of the “plausibility” extraterrestrials and crystal healing on that handy crystalinks.com site. There is a difference between proof of plausibility and proof of something actually happening. I can prove it’s “plausible” that Martians were behind 9/11 if plausible means, as you mean in your standard, that it could be. I’m not going to play the game of telling you that Ram Bomjon absolutely couldn’t be truly doing what is claimed. But “could be” is nowhere near “probably is.” Because, frankly, as much as you hem and haw, nobody but nobody has been shown to be able to sit under a pipal tree for ten months without eating or drinking without a) dying and b) suffering enough atrophy to not be able to walk five days and further gambol about as Ram Bomjon reports having done.
  21. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 6:33 pmBomjon wasn’t frozen, but his human body is affected by hormones. Perhaps through a yoga like practice persons like Bomjon regulate their hormones to produce low metabolism similar to hibernation.
    These researchers say they believe that hormones or hormone-like substances trigger the hibernation response, and that humans have the requisite genes to probably make this possible.See above for:“Evidence is mounting that hormone-like substances in hibernating bears may control all these physiological tricks. When injected into other species, both those that hibernate and those that don’t, these substances engender hibernation-like effects. “
  22. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 7:12 pmPerhaps, may, maybe, could be, might, believe, probably.Whatever.
  23. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 8:14 pmThe journal SCIENCE is a respected journal…if you don’t like that other website mentioned above.Roth’s study was published in SCIENCE, and in that journal he is quoted as saying that there’s every reason to believe the human body can sustain a hibernation-like state of low metabolism.:“There’s every reason to think this can be done in humans as well,” said Mark Roth, a cell biologist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and lead investigator of a study published in today’s edition of Science magazine.So here we have a scientist, with more “hands on” study and knowledge of human physiology than probably an of us have here. His study is deemed worthy of publication in a respected journal. And my take on his comments are that he wouldn’t stop at saying it is merely possible (but unlikely) that humans can sustain a hibernation state. When he says “there is every reason to think this can be done in humans”….I think that in effect he’s saying it more likly that it is possible than that it isn’t possible. And that isn’t based on freezing people. It is based on hormonal and enzyme changes.Thus, it is “likely” that the human body can do what it appears Bomjon is doing…..what those around him claim he has done. They are not claiming that he is doing something that is considered impossible or even unlikely in light of Roth’s studies. To me, it is jumping the gun to conclude and publicize that he’s involved in a scam simply because what he seems to have done is so uncommon – historically.
  24. Jim Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 8:19 pmWITH A GASEOUS BATH OF HYDROGEN SULFIDE!
  25. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 9:23 pmRoth’s studies used gaseous hydrogen sulfide to bring on a state of hiberation in mice. Roth said also that he would expect to use an injectable form for humans, and that there is every reason to believe that humans can be brought into a state of hibernation. That is the key, that the human physiology is believed to be able to sustain a hibernating state. The question left open, is what are the array of methods that can bring it on, and is yoga or meditation one of such methods?As for the hormones, the PBS study referenced above mention a Mayo clinic study. Two key hormones were considered key to enabling hiberation. That does not suggest a dependency on hydrogen sulfide or freezing as the sole methods of brining on hibernation.I think what all this information points to is that hibernation may plausibly be experienced by humans, and that meditation may involve conscious, deliberate hibernation…
  26. J. Clifford Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 10:23 pmOh, this is brilliant insanity! Are we now to believe that Ram Bomjon’s teenage followers in Nepal are watching PBS, reading the journal science, and have learned to anticipate Roth’s research, devising a method to inject Ram Bomjon with gaseous hydrogen sulfide at night, when nobody was looking, thus enabling Ram Bomjon to enter a state of induced hibernation?NO!Therefore, all this research must be cast aside, for none of it replicates in any way the conditions in which Ram Bomjon performed his stunt.You are claiming that Ram Bomjon entered a state of hibernation through meditation. Is there any research showing THAT is possible?NO!The studies you have cited has nothing to do with meditation WHATSOEVER.The best you can come up with is this canard: “there is no evidence to show that humans cannot hibernate”.James, sir, there is no evidence to show that humans cannot fly using meditation.
    James, sir, there is no evidence to show that humans cannot spontaneously transform themselves into elephants using meditation.
    James, sir, there is no evidence to show that humans cannot shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips using meditation.
    James, sir, there is no evidence to show that humans cannot turn their entire bodies inside out using meditation.SO WHAT!?!James, you are using the most loose standards of thinking possible. Your every argument is a demonstration of extreme credulity.You have supposed, without any evidence whatsoever that such a thing is possible, that Ram Bomjon has done a thing that no human being, NOT EVEN THE BUDDHA HIMSELF, has ever been observed doing.In fact, not even Ram Bomjon was observed doing it, because Ram Bomjon was often obscured from visitors’ sight, not only during the nighttime, but during the day.Ram Bomjon’s claims, and they are his own, defy not only centuries of knowledge gathered by Western and Eastern scientists, it defies the principles of Buddhism as well. For that matter, Ram Bomjon’s claims defy what every mother knows about her baby – that he must eat to live.This strange, loose thread you have strung is nothing but plain humbug, and it covers up one of the most clear cases of charlatanism that has ever been perpetrated upon crowds of eager human being since the touring of the Cardiff Giant.Will you please sit down and consider why you are willing to make yourself so gullible?
  27. James Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 11:45 pmYou’ve mistated what I am trying to show. I have limited goals here.In general, I think you’re holding that there’s no way, by any theory or circumstance, that a human being can remain still without food and water for months, that this is a preposterous impossibility.I just want to add highlight a theory, and some supporting evidence, of how a human may accomplish what Bomjon seems to have done.Key features of Bomjon’s situation are that he’s been substantially still for many months without food or water, and he doesn’t seem to have suffered the nearly total loss of muscle tone that would be expected for such profound inactivity.Scientific studies do show that these combined elements of being substantially still for months, and not eating or drinking, preserving most muscle tone, and avoiding urination, are typical features of a known condition, namely “hibernation.” Hibernation is known to appear naturally in many animals, and a few mammals. Scientists involved in the research of hibernation have expressed their impression that humans may have originally had a hibernation ability but lost it through evolution. Recent research suggests that humans still have the basic genetic ingredients to be able to experience hibernation. Hibernation is known by scientists to be triggered by a variety of conditions, including freezing, hydrogen sulfide. Hopefully we can agree that the points in this paragraph is supported by scientific literature.This much information offers at least a theory which is NOT preposterous as to the physiological conditions that could allow a person to do what Bomjon appears to have done. What is NOT shown yet is whether a human can conciously trigger a state of hibernation. I agree that this isn’t shown by that research.I am suggesting, as theory, that he might be able through meditation to trigger a hibernation like physiological state – which is a state known to exhibit those qualities. We already know that humans can alter their metabolism willfully by – for example – falling asleep wherein heart rate and oxgyen consumption drop greatly.We know that Bomjon could continue to be still and not need food if he can lower his metabolic rate to a point like hibernation. That would explain all those weird features like not needing food or water and no toilet use. Only time and future research will show whether humans acquire or re-acquire the ability to trigger their own hibernation state – which some of these scientists believe is built into our systems.For me, this means Bomjon type situations aren’t just preposterous impossibilities. This kind of information makes me see it as a plausible, unexplained possibility. It’s sort of where on a continuum of credulity one chooses to put this case, given the ambiguity. You put it all the way at the end….impossible. I put it closer to the middle, and keep an open mind. I don’t consider it proven, haven’t said so, so stop claiming I did.
  28. Layla Says: 
    March 21st, 2006 at 11:46 pmThere are two separate questions here: whether Bomjon is sincere and whether his handlers are sincere.I find it a lot easier to believe that Bomjon is really meditating in some way, or is following some religious path typical in his culture. There are traditions about monks sitting motionless, going high into the mountains to meditate in extreme cold, and even of Yeti attempting to achieve enlightenment with the monks. There is also a tradition of monks having a chela or disciple to interpret the monks’ religious abilities in order to beg food for the monk.The Bomjon thing reminds me of the stories my parents used to tell about how far they had to walk through the snow to get to school. When I actually saw the school, it didn’t seem nearly as far as the description. So the whole thing happened, but not quite in the way I had imagined.I find it chilling that Bomjon would withdraw from public view right before the Marxists launched an offensive where unknown numbers of people have died. He is known to have links with the Marxists, so anyone who can find Bomjon can also find the Marxists. The real question is whether Bomjon is a devout person who is being used or a cynic who is willing to use religion to achieve political power.
  29. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 12:18 amNot everything I wrote is “humbug,” whatever that word means.For example, science studies I’ve mentioned explain that hibernation is an actual physiological state that exhibits the same key features as what is alleged for Bomjon, i.e. many months of stillness, with no food or water, and substantial preservation of muscle tone.Science studies I’ve mentioned document that hibernation occurs in many animals, some mammals, and humans in some cases like when they are cold. Bears are known to hibernate for months, during which time their oxygen consumption falls to two percent of normal. During that time they don’t eat or drink or urinate. They have a system for converint urine to proteins. All this is a matter of science, not “humbug.”The science studies I’ve cited above show that some scientists believe humans are capable of being deliberately put into a state of hibernation, and that human genetics include the core genes required to support hibernation. This much is not humbug either.Science also has shown, as we know from our own experience, that during sleep humans naturally lower their metabolic rate, oxygen consumption, etc. dramatically. Thus….humans are KNOWN to be able to alter their own metabolic rates to some extent.What remains unknown and unstudied is whether humans can deliberately place themselves into hibernation through some technique. This part of what I mentioned is a theory I’m offering just for consideration. So long as a human could somehow lower their metabolic rate at will and go into a hibernative state, normal hibernation phyusiology would enable them to be still for months without food, etc. This element of doing it willfully is just conjecture on my part. The rest of it is not.Given whats known about hibernation so far, it doesn’t strike me as “preposterous impossibility” that a person could somehow trigger their own hibernative state. You seem to put this factor of credulity at the END of a continuum whereas I would only but it in the middle somewhere…… and keep an open mind. All that I have argued for is there are some known facts that justify keeping an open mind as to whether Bomjon could do what he seems to have done.I am still asking you to cite exactly the articles/websites where it is shown that Bomjon himself has made claims of what he is doing and how. As I said, I’ve seen press reports about what those around him claim. I haven’t seen reports that include interviews with him and quotes of his own explanations, other than that he wants to meditate for six years in private.Also…. people do not need to see PBS or science shows to be able to lower their metabolism at will, they just naturally fall asleep. That capability is built into them. I’m suggesting people may be able to place themselves into hibernation using a built in mental process analagous to sleep….i.e. deep meditation. Not that they watch PBS as you hypothesize. There IS research that shows people can lower their metabolism, oxygen consumption, and brain wave function through meditation. There is not research I know of to show that meditation carries someone all the way into hibernation – not yet any way.Your comment that I assume without any evidence whatsoever that hibernation is possible….is false. I offered evidence that hibernation exists, has features like reported for Bomjon, and is believed by some scientists to be a state that humans probably have genetically if not in practice. That is not direct evidence that Bomjon did exactly that. But it is evidence that a physiologic state similar to that claimed exists and is plausible.Here you are twisting what I say again in order to make my comments appear preposterous, which is the method you seem to favor for handling many people you write about.
  30. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 12:27 amLayla wrote:I find it chilling that Bomjon would withdraw from public view right before the Marxists launched an offensive where unknown numbers of people have died. He is known to have links with the Marxists,James asks: Can you please show me some websites or other specific sources showing that he has connections to marxists? I’m not claiming he doesn’t. I just haven’t seen any. When you say he has “connections”, what does that mean, just that he lives in a village in the vicinity where marxists have done attacks? or he’s an alleged “ring leader” or what?Thanks for your time.
  31. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 3:41 amJames,
    You are absolutely correct to question this. My information came from jCliff and I simply assumed it was true without bothering to check his sources myself, something that has produced very illuminating results in the past. Here is the link to jCliff’s article that asserted the connection with Marxists:http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/03/08/the-ten-commandments-of-god-in-the-bible-but-not-really/Here is the link to jCliff’s source of his Marxist info:http://www.kantipuronline.com/feature.php?nid=63824An anonymous security officer is the source of the Marxist info. What jCliff forgets to mention is the local people who formed the committee to do some crowd control deny any of the money goes to Marxists.So here’s what I think happened. You know how crowds can gather around tourists with potential money. The kid is sincere, his mother says he is unusually religious; some of his family is around him, and maybe they make some profit. The anonymous security guy was probably right about the Marxists. The boy was removed 1)When the family realized the boy was becoming a political rather than a religious statement 2) the family wasn’t getting the money if it was being siphoned off by Marxists 3)the government did something behind the scenes. Either the Marxists were controlling him and still are and took him away, or the family is depending on this income to feed the rest of the family and the boy doesn’t have a choice, or we are looking at a sincere religious expression. I think the last is true, even if some other stuff is going on too.Has anyone lived in this culture and have some insight about what families in poverty might be willing to do with their children? My impression of visiting Nepal is that someone is always willing to scam the tourist, but they are basically naive rather than Machiavellian.Yes, jCliff does like to misinterpret people’s positions; he has done it with me. I think a certain amount of overstatement makes good copy in a forum like this, and gets people to clarify their views, but he can be a nuisance at times and a little over the top. Perhaps he just needs to read more carefully.
  32. J. Clifford Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 4:12 amJames,You’re completely missing the point.If the story of Ram Bomjon was just this: Boy sits down a lot, mostly stays still – would we be reading anything about Ram Bomjon at all? No. The reason we’re reading about Ram Bomjon is because of the extraordinary claims.Your trouble thinking clearly is shown, James, by the way that you can’t even rephrase my argument correctly.You claim that I have commented “that I assume without any evidence that hibernation is possible”. No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. What I said, in fact, was this: “You are claiming that Ram Bomjon entered a state of hibernation through meditation. Is there any research showing THAT is possible?”I’m not just talking about evidence that hibernation is possible. I’m talking about evidence that entering hibernation through meditation is possible, as you suggest Ram Bomjon has done.THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THAT, AND YOU HAVEN’T EVEN CLAIMED THAT THERE IS.You’re making huge logical leaps, James. Bigger than the Grand Canyon. I suggest that you sit down and map out the logical argument that you’re making. If you just look at what you’re saying, you’ll find huge gaps.
  33. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 5:42 amJames, the other thing jCliff likes to do, besides mis-stating someone’s position, is namecalling. If he can’t think of a good argument, he doesn’t try to find some common ground with the person, he starts a personal attack. For instance, in the above post #32, jCliff uses the word “you” 12 different times. Maybe a matter of too much caffeine. Personally the whole thing is starting to bore me.
  34. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 5:44 amYes. I agree that extraordinary claims have attracted a lot of attention. But…so what does that prove. Is that your answer to my request to show me news sources proving that Bomjon himself made the extraordinary claims you attribute to him personnaly? If so, that’s no response at all. I ask AGAIN, please list specific sources where I can read that Bomjon himself made this claims, each major claim. I haven’t seen those yet, only claims by people in his vicinity. I have made this request three of four times so far. No response.You attack me, saying ” You are claiming that Ram Bomjon entered a state of hibernation through meditation. ….. I’m talking about evidence that entering hibernation through meditation is possible, as you suggest…. ”If you look at the above texts, I freely volunteered that I offer only as a theory thathe could enter hibernation through meditation. I admitted I know of no evidence, tonight, that this is proven/possible.I’m not making a logical leaps. I summarized some information showing that scientists believe hibernation is a state humans could viably experience, that it has features similar to the claims surrounding Bomjohn, and I offered a theory that such a hibernation state MIGHT be entered via meditation. Since I haven’t attempted to prove te latter, there is no big leap in logic. I have an intuitive impression. Intuition isn’t logic.Although I admit I don’t know of evidence that *proves” Bomjon specifically could enter hibernation through meditation, I do know of evidence that humans can control deep, fundamental body processes via meditation, including slowing their heartbeats to once per minute………..which is dramatic, surprising, and looks very suggestive of a hibernation state to me. Here’s one bit of evidence by an M.D. with the Menninger Foundation.
    —————————————–
    Psychophysiological Approach
    http://pages.britishlibrary.net/blwww3/health/psychophys.htm
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:29:55 AM GMT-8While visiting Green at Menninger, I was able to view his experiments wherein Swami Rama demonstrated his ability to throw his heart into and out of atrial fibrillation at will. I also watched a movie that Green had made in India of an Indian yogi being buried alive for eight hours. He was able to slow his breathing to less than once every few minutes, and to decrease his metabolic rate to such a low level that the meager amount of air in the coffin was able to sustain him.
    ————————————————–
    See also this physician’s blog which discusses Menninger Clinic tests showing control of the heart, ability to stop the heartbeat completely:Richard G. Petty, MD: January 2006
    http://richardgpettymd.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/01/index.html
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:42:00 AM GMT-8Much of this interest grew out of some extraordinary experiments conducted at the Menninger Clinic in 1969, when it was still in Topeka, Kansas. An Indian Yogi named Swami Rama was shown to be able to voluntarily stop his heart for between 16.2 and 20.1 seconds, and subsequently others were shown to be able to control temperature, pain and bleeding.
  35. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 5:54 amHere are summaries of more studies showing that some yoga practitioners and meditators control
    very fundamental physiological processes in the body, feats suggestive of an ability to enter hibernation like states via meditation…..even if for limited periods of time.James———————Meditation
    http://www.purifymind.com/MeditationIntro.htm
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:52:08 AM GMT-8Elmer and Alyce Green, with their colleagues at the Menninger Foundation in Topeka, Kansas, also observed exhibitions of yogic heart control. Their subject, Swami Rama, while sitting perfectly still, produced an atrial flutter of 306 beats per minute that lasted for sixteen seconds. During a fibrillation of this kind, a section of the heart oscillates rapidly while its chambers do not fill and its valves do not work properly, but Swami Rama gave no sign that the maneuver caused him any pain or heart damage. The swami also produced an IIF difference between the left and right sides of his right palm. While he did this, the left side of his palm turned pink and the right side gray (Green and Green, 1977).
    Yogis frequently use abdominal contractions to slow their heart rate rather than intervening more directly through the central nervous system. Curiously, though, an earlier study had examined a man with no yogic training at all who could stop his heart without such maneuvers, simply by relaxing and “allowing everything to stop.” By this procedure, he could induce a gradual slowing of his pulse until he started to faint, at which point he would take a deep breath. When EKG tests showed that his heartbeat did indeed disappear, the doctor who examined him concluded that the man’s cardiac arrest was induced through some mechanism which, although under voluntary control, is not known to the patient himself. Careful observation did not reveal any breath-holding or Valsalva maneuver. Apparently the patient simply abolished all sympathetic tone by complete mental and physical relaxation (McClure, 1959).
    Like heart stopping, the live burial of yogis has excited the interest of several researchers. A physician, Rustom Jal Vakil, published an account in the British journal Lancet of such a confinement that was witnessed by some 10,000 people near Bombay in February 1950. According to Vakil, an emaciated sadhu named Ramdasji sat cross-legged in a subterranean 216-cubic-foot cubicle and remained there for sixty-two hours. His pulse remained steady at eighty beats per minute; his blood pressure was 112/78; and his respiratory rate fluctuated from eight to ten breaths per minute. Though he had some scratches and cuts, Vakil wrote, Ramdasji appeared “none the worse for his grueling experience.’’ (Vakil, 1950).
    In June 1956, a more closely observed study of yogic confinement was conducted under the auspices of the All-India Institute of Mental Health in Bangalore with a Hatha yogi, Krishna Iyengar. Hoenig, a psychiatrist from the University of Manchester, witnessed the experiment and described it in a review of yoga research published in 1968 (Hoenig, 1968). According to Hoenig’s report, a pit some two by three by four feet was dug on the institute’s grounds and covered with wire meshing, a rubber sheet, and cotton carpet. An electrode junction box connected to an EEG and an EKG was placed in the pit along with instruments to measure temperature and concentration of gas. The yogi was confined for nine hours. When he was released he immediately walked about the grounds, according to Hoenig’s firsthand account, and demonstrated athletic feats including a headstand with his legs in the lotus position. The percentage of carbon dioxide in the air in his enclosure, which was 1.34% at the beginning of the experiment, was only 3.8% at the end, lower than would normally be expected. Iyengar’s heart rate gradually slowed from 100 to 40 beats a minute in recurring twenty- to twenty-five-minute cycles, but his EKG record did not register any other abnormality and the cycles did not coincide with his breathing or brain-wave patterns. The yogi’s EEG showed a normal waking record for the full nine hours, characterized by a stable alpha rhythm of 50 microvolts with no evidence of sleep or interference caused by physical movement. From these records, the experimenters concluded that their subject lay motionless and wide awake, without the active cognition that would have reduced or eliminated his alpha rhythm. Iyengar said he had maintained the shavasana, or corpse pose, using ujjaya breathing while remembering the names of God. He was surprised that his heart had speeded and slowed, and could not explain why it had done so. It beat normally, however, after the experiment.
    Because the earthen pits used in most yogic confinements leak oxygen and carbon dioxide, Anand, Chhina, and Singh tested a yogi named Ramanand in an airtight glass and metal box, once for eight hours and again for ten hours. The yogi’s average oxygen use during the first experiment decreased from the basal rate of 19.5 liters per hour to 12.2, and during the second experiment to 13.3 liters per hour. His carbon dioxide output went down during both experiments. Ramanand, moreover, did not exhibit any rapid breathing or speeded heart rate as the oxygen in his box diminished and carbon dioxide increased. “Sri Ramanand Yogi could reduce his oxygen intake and carbon dioxide output to levels significantly lower than his requirements under basal conditions,” Anand and his colleagues wrote. “It appears from this study that [he] could voluntarily reduce his basal metabolic rate on both occasions he went into the box.” [30]
    During a remarkable experiment reported by L. K. Kothari and associates, a yogi was buried for eight days in an earthen pit and connected by leads to an EKG in a nearby laboratory. After the pit was boarded up, the subject’s heart rate sometimes went as high as fifty beats per minute, until a straight line appeared on the EKG tracing when the yogi had been in the pit for twenty-nine hours. There had been no slowing of his heart immediately before the straight line appeared, nor any sign of electrical disturbance, but the experimenters proceeded with certainty that their subject had not died. Suspecting that their EKG leads had been deliberately or accidentally disconnected, they checked their machine and continued to monitor its tracings. To their astonishment, it started to register electrical activity some seven days later, about a half hour before the yogi’s scheduled disinterment. “After some initial disturbance,” they wrote, “a normal configuration appeared. The [speeded heart rate] was again there but there was no other abnormality.” When the pit was opened, the yogi was found sitting in the same posture he had started in, but in a stuporous condition. In accounting for his remarkable EKG record, the experimenters argued that a disconnection of the EKG lead would have produced obvious markings on the tracings in their laboratory, as they found when they tried to simulate ways in which the yogi might have tinkered with it.
  36. Jim Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 6:06 amLayla,jclifford is not engaging in any personal attacks in the statement to which you refer. He does not refer to any supposed quality of James, but only refers to James’ arguments and the large problems with them. You’re very, very far off base; if you think questioning someone’s argument is somehow a “personal attack,” perhaps you’d like to change your position regarding cartoons of Mohammed, which certainly would qualify as “personal attacks.”On the other point, you’re also coloring what you write. The journalist refers to several sources, not one. And you neglect to mention that the committee controlling Bomjon is also the committee through which the money goes, so they have an interest in not being exactly upfront.
  37. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 1:13 pmoops, wrong link. here is the link to the original bomjon article asserting Marxist influence:http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2005/11/25/ram-bomjon-investigation/And who is the President of the committee controlling Bomjon, and the committee through which the money goes that jim refers to? Bed Bahadur Lama, Bomjon’s uncle. Then there’s that pesky five hundred thousand pounds in a bank account frozen by the town’s mayor, who presumably must cooperate with the governemnt.If you want to understand it you have to follow the links yourself and not depend on the Unfit News for your primary interpretation of events. But mybe I should be letting the writer of the articles speak for himself on this.
  38. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 1:45 pmLayla,I also checked this additional link you just posted, and still don’t seem to find the word “marxist” on that page.I am still hoping to see a source for the contention that marxists are affiliated with Bomjon in some way.Also, I am still waiting to see if JCliff or anyone will post a link here showing press interviews with Bomjon in which he asserts, himself, that he has accomplished what is claimed, i.e. ten months with no food, no water, no use of the toilet and etc. I have seen article reporting claims by people in his vicinity, which seem more like rumors. But, I haven’t seen reports of him directly claiming some of these things. I’d like to see what he himself claims.Thanks for you time.James
  39. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 1:53 pmI don’t understand jclifford’s opening remark about “merit.”In the first sentence of this post, jclifford says:“Earlier this morning, I reported that Ram Bomjon, the teenager from Nepal who is supposed to have proved his merit as a new Buddha or great enlightened teacher by sitting ”However, “merit” is not a word I have seen in any of many news articles about Bomjon. In fact, I haven’t seen articles mentioning that Bomjon says his ten months have shown or meant or accomplished anything at all. He’s said to have said he is not a Buddha reincarnation and doesn’t want people to say that.
    He hasn’t said anything like “the value or importance of me doing these ten months of meditation is x….”Maybe jclifford can explain or offer a source for using that word “merit”……James
  40. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 1:53 pmI don’t understand jclifford’s opening remark about “merit.”In the first sentence of this post, jclifford says:“Earlier this morning, I reported that Ram Bomjon, the teenager from Nepal who is supposed to have proved his merit as a new Buddha or great enlightened teacher by sitting ”However, “merit” is not a word I have seen in any of many news articles about Bomjon. In fact, I haven’t seen articles mentioning that Bomjon says his ten months have shown or meant or accomplished anything at all. He’s said to have said he is not a Buddha reincarnation and doesn’t want people to say that.
    He hasn’t said anything like “the value or importance of me doing these ten months of meditation is x….”Maybe jclifford can explain or offer a source for using that word “merit”……James
  41. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 2:35 pmJim,
    jclifford says:
    “You are claiming that Ram Bomjon entered a state of hibernation through meditation.” By my reading, James makes no such claim. He thinks it is pausible, based on preliminary research which he himself does not find conclusive.
    jclifford says:
    “Your trouble thinking clearly is shown, James, by the way that you can’t even rephrase my argument correctly.” James is making his own argument. It seems that jclifford is the one who is not rephrasing someone else’s argument correctly. The tipoff word here is “even,” making this an emotional personal attack rather than a discussion of the issues.
    jclifford says:
    “You’re making huge logical leaps, James. Bigger than the Grand Canyon. I suggest that you sit down and map out the logical argument that you’re making. If you just look at what you’re saying, you’ll find huge gaps.” A bunch of “you” statements, the semantic tipoff of a personal attack, rather than discussion of the issues. And BTW, what were those “gaps”? We’ve forgotten about that subject since it’s now been overwhelmed by the personal attack.
    jclifford says:
    “I’m not just talking about evidence that hibernation is possible. I’m talking about evidence that entering hibernation through meditation is possible, as you suggest Ram Bomjon has done. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THAT, AND YOU HAVEN’T EVEN CLAIMED THAT THERE IS.” At last jclifford seems to recognize james’ initial argument, but the emotional and personal nature of the statement is again revealed by the word “even” and the stickiness of jclifford’s caps lock key.James is certainly willing to consider things that go beyond the orthodox, and perhaps orthodoxy needs to be challenged, within the framework of the scientific method. James is certinly on the edge of what i regard to be credible, but that edge is where the new scientific discoveries are possible. James seems well aware of the edge he is walking on, but also seems to be able to engage in the type of creative brainstorming that gives birth to new ideas. jclifford’s destructive fighting style stifles that discussion of ideas.I was a lot nicer to jclifford than I thought he deserved, Jim, mostly becasue I know you don’t like a lot of flaming rhetoric.The argument about Mohammed not close, no cigar. Prophet was a public figure, and open to public discourse and cartooning. As far as we know james is not, at least not in this forum.
  42. mackers Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 2:42 pmwhat kind of coversation is that jim,Huh,,, trying to show something that you guys are intellectual egoistic nonsence you guys are out of reality.you better join scott out of that conversation i missed him.
  43. Fruktata Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 3:17 pmJames and Layla, you guys are really out on a limb, defending this obvious fakery, claiming that it’s plausible. Give me a break.And Layla, you’ve got a weird idea that if someone uses the word “you”, it must be an attack. You must feel beseiged all the time. Hm. Taking a look at your comments around this web site, it seems that you do. Oh, damn, I said You! I must have been attacking you! Damn. I said it again. Another attack against poor Layla.What do you want J. Clifford to say? Do you want him to write like Queen Victoria?“When one engages in claims about extraordinary affairs, the standards for proof that one would offer would be expected to be extraordinary, or else one would appear as if one had one’s foot in one’s mouth.”Come off it, you guys. This Ram Bomjon stuff is a crock, and you know it. Anyone with a little of bit of grey matter in their skulls can figure that out.You are wrong. You! You! You! There, I attacked you. No, why don’t you get a band aid and nurse your wounds.You! Oh, I’m so sadistic.
  44. Scott Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 3:28 pm“…you guys are out of reality.you better join scott out of that conversation i missed him.”Hey now… How I get dragged into this?
  45. Jim Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 3:55 pmkicking and screaming, I imagine!
  46. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 4:07 pmhttp://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/27/latest-news-on-ram-bahadur-bomjon-scientists-denied-access-maoist-bomjon-shopping-spree-continues/James,
    Here is a link to one of Jim’s pieces with “Maoist” in the title. The five links at the top of the piece are just internal links to jclifford’s other articles in the series, but the Kantihar link is in this piece. If you look about five paragraphs down to the one starting with “Fourth,…” you will see the Maoist reference.I don’t see the reference to Menninger Clinic in the Richard Petty link, but it’s an interesting link.It would be nice if something in the Bomjon experience could give us a better clue to the mind-body connection so well documented in the placebo effect and give us more tools for managing medical conditions. I just had a visit from an old friend back east who hadn’t seen me since Christmas and was alarmed by the changes in my physical appearance I am experiencing with inhaled steroids for COPD. Years ago, my friend took inhaled steroids for asthma with the same effects, but was able to stop taking them with a guided imagery tape by Belleruth Naparstek, along with aspirin and licorice tea. The underlying pathophysiology for both conditions is inflammation, but I just went through weaning myself off the steroids and found I badly needed them after all. But once I reach a level of pharmacological control of the inflammatory process, perhaps this emerging field will allow me to live with lower dosages….A detail: while Bomjon has been meditating, the weather in Nepal has been usually cold, resulting in deaths across the region. Remember the link between hypothermia and some near-drowning recoveries after lengthy submersion in very cold water? I wonder if a change in temperature accompanied Bomjon’s sudden mobility.
  47. HareTrinity Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 6:13 pmOkay, hibernation of a sort (well, not Winter so Easternation or whatever is the word, no?) is probably possible in a fair few animals given the right conditions.That said; humans are the ONLY animals that naturally suffer back troubles (certain dog breeds excluded due to inbreeding).Worst position for a human’s back: Sitting downMostly animals get comfy to hibernate, as is understandable, but for a human to hibernate whilst sitting? For how long, now?His back would be killing him, and gravity isn’t slowed by hibernation, so I have trouble imagining how he would have got into such a state whilst in that position.
  48. HareTrinity Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 6:14 pmBy the way; please cut back on the copy and pasting; it takes up a lot of space and a summary of what the study shows is all that’s really needed.
  49. Layla Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 7:05 pmFruktata, by my dictionary “plausible” means “superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable”. Plausible “implies reasonableness at first sight or hearing usu. with some hint of a possibility of being deceived.”Fakery has not been proved here, neither has authenticity. James is much more open-minded than I am on the subject, and I appreciate having my presuppositions challenged, especially since he is using some respectable research to postulate future areas of possible scientific inquiry. It is indeed ‘plausible’ that there is some scientific explanation for the Bomjon phenomenon that we do not yet understand.Jclifford as Queen Victoria? Is he so much of a control freak then, and proper? I love it.My point about jclifford is to discuss the ideas and not the person. There is a technique called an “I statement” that is found in all kinds of self-help literature from anger management to marriage fighting styles. Basically the person instead of making statements that begin with “you” as in “you make me angry” learn not to displace and disavow their feelings, and make statements starting with “I” in order to own their feelings and needs as in “”I am angry with you.” If you need to know more, get either a book or a shrink.Haretrinity, the word you’re looking for is ‘estivate’ a state of torpor that happens in the summerTaking martial arts classes well into my 30’s I can tell you some positions, such as the classic sitting on the heels with toes extended is actually quite comfortable for extended periods of time, once you practice it. If Bomjon is young and flexible he will have even less problem than an aging ex-runner with bad knees. In the East they have no end of yoga positions.
  50. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 7:29 pmLayla,
    Thank you for additional link info.I would not, myself, assume cooler weather triggered him to get up and go. I would assume he wanted a quieter place with fewer people standing around gawking. Fewer cars and trucks and noisy motorcyles reving engines and filling the clean air with exhaust fumes and all that. When first sat down to meditate, I imagine he thought he’d be in a quiet setting. Those studies I cited mention that some of the tested yogi’s were able to control and increase or decrease their body temperature at will. Some sects in that area include an ability to alter body temperature and sit for days in snow as a “test” of mastering self control. If Bomjon is applying those techniques, and is accomplished with them, I would suppose the cold wouldn’t bother him.
  51. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 7:35 pmFruktata wrote:““When one engages in claims about extraordinary affairs, the standards for proof that one would offer would be expected to be extraordinary, or else one would appear as if one had one’s foot in one’s mouth.”James replies:In my case I am not really asserting extraodinary claims. My posts primarily involve two elements. First, citations to scientific studies and news of a factual nature, such as research on animal hibernation and the published opinions of scientists who believe human hibernation is going to become possible. Second, I advanced a theory, a hypothetical scenario labeled as such, that persons such as Bomjon might be able to sit for months without new food by greatly lowering their metabolic rate, etc…..in the manner of hibernation. To the extent that I cite scientific research or qote opinions of scientists, I am not asserting claims, let alone extraordinary claims. To the extent that I offer an opinion or theory, and qualify it as such, it isn’t purported to be fact and doesn’t require supporting facts as though it is asserted as factual. I think people are too excited about the simple exercise of imagination and free speech.
  52. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 7:48 pmRegarding the assertion by JIM of a connection between Maoist rebels
    and Bomjon, the most JIM seems to know and say is that some unknown security officials
    made some statement in an unknown context about money going to Maoist rebels.I think it is important not to jump to conclusions on such little information. Keep an open mind.
    It is possible that, if any money actually goes to Maoists that it is survival or extortion money.
    The rebels regularly fund their activities by seizing people, blocking roads, kidnapping, robbing, etc. Below are a few Googled headlines about that sort of thing.JamesAsian Political News: Maoist rebels rob trekkers in Nepal, paper saysFull text of the article, ‘Maoist rebels rob trekkers in Nepal, paper says’ from Asian Political News, a publication in the field of News & Society, …
    www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ mi_m0WDQ/is_2000_Sept_11/ai_65731084 – 26k – Cached – Similar pages – Remove resultNepal – news – topic by NewsXSSuspected communist rebels rob bank in Nepal despite heightened security (
  53. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 7:58 pmHaretrinity writes:“Worst position for a human’s back: Sitting down
    Mostly animals get comfy to hibernate, as is understandable, but for a human to hibernate whilst sitting? For how long, now?”James replies:I suspect you are probably right that as a generality sitting for most people that long would be a problem for the back. But that is a generality. Yoga practitioners are specificly trained to do just that. Bomjon had several years of training before this phase. It is possible that he’s an exception due to prior training and conditioning.Also, muscle tone comes into play. In the course of studying hibernation in bears and other animals, scientists have studied how they maintain 75% of muscle tone after hibernating in the freezing temperatures for many months. One thing learned is that there are suble waves of electrical current cycling through the muscles of the bears. Scientists believe this is one aspect of how muscle tone could be maintained. It gives a baseline stimulation to muscle tissue, which contributes to toning. Periodic shivering of muscles is another suspected explanation.Yogic training inherently involves the practioner’s learning of controlling energies within the body, including the back. I would surmise that a yoga practitioner in the positiion of Bomjon enjoys relaxation and subtle stimulations that preserve the condition of the back. Sitting in the “lotus posture” as he seems to be doing has been a classic long term sitting position for yogis for centuries, and depections of the Buddha show that.
  54. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 8:09 pmFruktata writes:
    *one explanation* of how a human might accomplish what Bomjon appears to have done, ie. by consciously lowering metabolic rates to a point near a hibernative state. Expounding a theory, identified as such, isn’t fakery. Humans already deliberately lower their metabolic rate every day when they fall asleep. That’s not complicated to do but it is very complicated to explain. It involves a natural and latent capability humans have, which they can generally do without thinking of any method, even though they still don’t fully understand the how and why of sleeping. In a like manner, I theorize that humans may be able to go further than the low metabolism of deep sleep into a hibernative state with techniques offered through yoga. I have already listed studies above in which yoga practitioners have been shown to deliberately stop their own heart and otherwise control bodily functions normally considered beyond conscious control. Those studies also show that some practitioners could lower ther heart rate dramatically for days. When the whole metabolism slows so much there is less digestive activity, less consumption of oxygen and nutrients. This points to a direction of thinking that may plausibly explain situations like Bomjon.
  55. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 8:37 pmIn order to understand Bomjon’s desire to move to a quiet place, try putting yourselves into his shoes with this imaginary exercise:Pretend you want to take an afternoon nap in a pretty park in your town. You choose a secluded spot, lay down, and begin to snooze after you feel you’re secure and it is pleasant/quiet.While you’re asleep, the park begins to fill up with noisy, smelly cars and people. To your surprise, the county fair is scheduled to be set up in that park near your sleeping spot. Over the course of a few hours, more than a thousand cars, motorcycles, RV’s buses and taxicabs wind their way in to the park, choosing adhoc parking places, revving engines, slamming car doors shut. Kids and others playfull shout now and then, a tension fills the air as parking space is limited and people press against each other. Your friends come to protect you from being disturbed, but end up asking you questions about if you’re OK staying here, this and that. After first trying to ignore the change in the setting, you might eventually decide it just isn’t worth it to stay in that spot.Similarly, Bomjon is described as a person who looked for a quiet place to sit down and be alone and meditate restfully. More and more people and cars and RV’s etc. have shown up there every day for months. The lines of people are long and impatient. People come with their own agendas and set up little shops to sell trinkets and profit off the fact that others want to see him. There isn’t enough parking space to go around. Roads are clogged up. There are a few videos on the Internet that show the chaotic scene that has emerged around him. If one goes as far as acknowledging that he’s known to have studied meditation and buddhism for many years, traveled to other places to get his training, put himself out in order to advance personally….then one can imagine that he would exert himself to go find a more private and suitable place than the one that became chaotic and noisy without his intention.James
  56. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 9:27 pmIn articles I have read, Bomjon has traveled to places where the original
    Gautama Buddha had traveled, studying all that would be necessary for accomplishing
    enlightment in a manner similar to Gautama’s pathway. After researching what is known of the factual history of the original Buddha’s life, it was interesting to see certain parallels, such as the six year period for austere life and long meditation, denial of food and water, etc. Here is a passage:Buddhist Psychology
    http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/buddhapers.html
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:26:54 PM GMT-8At the age of 29, Siddhartha came to realize that he could not be happy living as he had been. He wanted more than anything to discover how one might overcome suffering. After kissing his sleeping wife and newborn son Rahula goodbye, he snuck out of the palace and into the forests of northern India.He then began to practice the austerities and self-mortifications practiced by a group of five ascetics. For six years, he practiced. The sincerity and intensity of his practice were so astounding that, before long, the five ascetics became followers of Siddhartha. But the answers to his questions were not forthcoming. He redoubled his efforts, refusing food and water, until he was in a state of near death.For six years, he practiced the ascetic life, eating only what he found on the ground, drinking only rain water, wearing nothing but a loin cloth. When the answers he was seeking wouldn’t come to him, he tried even harder. But Siddhartha realized that these extreme practices were leading him nowhere, that in fact it might be better to find some middle way between the extremes of the life of luxury and the life of self-mortification.
    Outside of the town of Bodh Gaya, Siddhartha decided that he would sit under a certain fig tree as long as it would take for the answers to the problem of suffering to come. He sat there for many days, first in deep concentration to clear his mind of all distractions, then in mindfulness meditation, opening himself up to the truth. On the full moon of May, with the rising of the morning star, Siddhartha finally understood the answer to the question of suffering and became the Buddha, which means “he who is awake.”
  57. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 9:57 pmA 2003 CNN story at the below link describes an Indian man who went for ten days without food or water and didn’t urinate. The doctors in the hospital kept him in a sealed room with special toilet facilities to verify his claims. The did verify that for at least ten days he went without food and water. Typically, it is estimated that people cannot go more than two to four days without water. Here is the story, one of many I found reported.JamesCNN.com – Mystic’s fast baffles doctors – Nov. 26, 2003
    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/11/26/offbeat.india.fast/
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:53:14 PM GMT-8Mystic’s fast baffles doctors
    Thursday, November 27, 2003 Posted: 0335 GMT (11:35 AM HKT)Prahlad Jani says his fasting ability is divinely inspired.(CNN) — David Blaine eat your heart out.The magician’s recent stunt of going 44 days without food is child’s play compared with the alleged efforts of India’s Prahlad Jani.This 76-year-old Indian mystic claims to have survived the past 68 years — yes, years — without eating, drinking or going to the toilet.
    It’s an astonishing claim, and one which is being investigated by a team of doctors at the Sterling Hospital in Ahmedabad in India’s of the state of Gujarat.
    So far, doctors have subjected Jani to a 10-day trial under 24 hour surveillance and have been astonished by their findings.
    The reclusive Jani — who normally lives in a cave about 120 kilometers north of Ahmedabad — did not eat, drink or relieve himself for 10 days.
    “Jani has not passed urine since he was brought here on November 12. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other route not even water during this period,” Dr Urman Dhruv of The Association of Physicians of Ahmedabad, told The Times of India.
    “All his parameters are within the normal physiological range. Initially, the project was to continue for seven days but his health allowed us to extend it,” said Dhruv
  58. James Says: 
    March 22nd, 2006 at 11:11 pmHere is another study of a similar situation, where it is claimed that a man was scientifically observed – by doctors – to have gone for many months without food and water. Although I find websites reporting skeptism in general terms, and outrage at the idea, I haven’t been able to find a website offering specifics of how they debunk it. Instead of a general disbelief, I’d rather find a website that specificly debunks the specific doctors involved who vouched for this study, or the hospital, or lays out the method of deception. I didn’t find any of the latter after an hour of hunting on the Internet, so I give up for now and publish this excerpt here. Maybe it is related to the means by which Bomjon goes without food and water – if he does. Maybe not. Here it is:                                                              
    http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:B4SxCyyYCTEJ:www.hcoop.net/~terry/metaphysics/sungazing/hypothesis411fasts-latest.doc+Dr.++Sudhir+V.+Shah+M.D.,+D.M.+Neurophysician&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=11&lr=lang_en
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:01:03 PM GMT-8………one may personally come and himself or herself check & scrutinize; as we doctors have done all these months & fellow men have been staying with him all throughout. Several visitors also see him throughout the day and night. No body ever had encountered even a doubtful situation. All of them have been satisfied with the genuinity. Even he was kept in a nursing home for more than a month for a critical checking as well as medical tests. He has been isolated from his relatives who are staying at Calicut . He is kept in a two room flat, which is totally devoid of any kind of food.Several doctors from India, Gujarat, Ahmedabad and abroad have from time to time examined and are unable to explain the scientific basis from current clinical knowledge, while declaring the genuinity of fasting. A team of medical doctors have supervised (medical examination as well as laboratory tests) throughout these fasting. This comprise of Dr. Sudhir Shah M.D.,D.M.(neuro), Dr. Nalin Gheewala M.D., Dr. Viresh Patel M.D., Dr. Navneet Shah M.D.(Physician and endocrinologist), Dr. K.K.Shah M.S. Gen.Surgery, Dr.Kalpesh Shah M.D.Radiologist, Dr. Gaurgey Sutaria Radiologist, Dr. Jayesh Sheth, Dr. P G. Shah, Dr. Prakash Doshi , (family physician) and several others.
    Today, it is 411th day of Shri Hira Ratan Manek’s fasting. (on Dt. 14th Februry 2001) He started fasting from 1.1.2000. He is on total fasting as per Jainism. He is consuming only boiled water daily between 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. only and no other liquids and just no other food, No I\V or I\M injections. Medical checkup commenced few days before fasting programme & is continued till to day. It consists of daily written record of pulse, blood pressure, respiration, Temperature, water intake, urine output, weight etc. Relevant Hematological and biochemical (basic and few advanced) tests are done periodically i.e. monthly or fortnightly. ECGs are taken regularly. Ultra Sonography, EEG, CT.Scan and M.R.I. Brain have been taken at the end of one year and a team consisting of general practitioners physicians, surgeons, Cardiologists, endocrinologist and a neurologist have been examining him regularly and periodically from first day of fasting. Except for loss of 19 Kg weight, (Which is now stable with no further weight loss for last 3 months) a slight reduction of pulse rate and B.P. and definite reduction of respiratory rate (from 18 to now 10/minute) amazingly, there is no other medical abnormality. Even the brain and mental capacities are absolutely normal. There are hardly any findings. He has stopped passing stool after 16th day of fasting and urine output is maintained at around 600 to 800 c.c. His blood sugar is between 60 to 90. Rest of the parameters are all normal.
  59. Layla Says: 
    March 23rd, 2006 at 1:15 amJames,
    I did not mean he left because it was cold. If he was hibernating, triggered by cold, it would make more sense that he left because it got warm, like the bear leaving the cave in the spring. When others were dying because of cold, he sat down under the tree and hibernated or meditated.Your writing is really long. It’s hard to read.All the anecdotal stories of Buddhists and Yeti have the monks in the high mountains meditating in extreme cold with little clothing. Even if Nepal is at the same latitude as Egypt, it is high on a plateau next to the highest mountains on earth. So even if you get a sunburn here, because of the high altitude, and get outstanding photos in the sunlight, you are still freezing your butt off. I was there in I think March, and I slept in layers including a wool sweater and asked for extra blankets. If you leave anything with water in your room, there will be a layer of ice on it in the morning.There were never any Maoists when I was there in the nineties. I moved freely wherever I wanted with no fears of kidnapping. Western women could go trekking alone, hiring only one scrawny guide. It was indeed a Shangri-la where time stood still in the fourteenth century. Now it appears they are entering the nineteenth century and no one can stay there safely.“In articles I have read, Bomjon has traveled to places where the original
    Gautama Buddha had traveled, studying all that would be necessary for accomplishing
    enlightment in a manner similar to Gautama’s pathway.”Where did you read this about Bomjon? The reference you gave is about Sidhartha, another name for the Buddha, a story that is well-known in the west.I don’t believe the story from India. In this part of the world it is too easy to bribe someone. What are the reports from the U.S. or Canada or England medical establishment?Is there a way you could determine physically whether someone was hibernating? What would the signs be? Do you think this is something special or genetic that has evolved only in this part of the world with certain people? If you could discover how this lowering of metabolism was accomplished, would there be a practical medical application for it, for instance could you teach it to sick people in a hospital? How would you go about proving what is happening if you could be next to Bomjon?
  60. Layla Says: 
    March 23rd, 2006 at 2:01 amBody temperature-you can lower someone’s body temperature externally with an alcohol bath. They used to use this for dangerously high fevers, but now they just use tylenol. The body temp will actually measurably come down several degrees in less than an hour.Water intake-I have only seen people go for a day or two without water before they die. There are no tears in the eyes and the mouth is also dry. Of course these people were already quite ill.
  61. James Says: 
    March 23rd, 2006 at 2:38 amRe: water and dehydration.I saw a website earlier claiming the longest survival period for someone without water was 18 days, although 3 days is typical under average circumstances.Here’s what a biology professor wrote on the Scientific American website:Science & Technology at Scientific American.com: Ask the Experts: Biology: How long can the average person survive without water?
    http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000AEAC0-93EC-1DEF-A838809EC588F2D7
    Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:36:27 PM GMT-8Randall K. Packer, a professor of biology at George Washington University, explains.
    It is impossible to give an answer to this seemingly simple question because many variable factors determine a person’s survival time. Under the most extreme conditions, death can come rather quickly. For example, a child left in a hot car or an athlete exercising hard in hot weather can dehydrate, overheat and die in a period of a few hours. An adult in comfortable surroundings, in contrast, can survive for a week or more with no, or very limited, water intake.

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